Clairwood Park 17 Mar 2013, Sun

  • pirates
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Re: Re: Clairwood Park 17 Mar 2013, Sun

12 years 3 months ago
#328932
to put this issue to bed COULD PERHAPS HIBS OR SCOTIA contact the nhra and get the COMPLETE RULING regarding this incident including the one that rob faux refers to and in fact another that an attorney informed me last night could have been used to overide this shocking outcome..perhaps dave thistleton can get it all for us and let us have more than one sided opinions like we heard last nite on the gold circle sponsored winning ways and his column in the newspaper.....and i ask again was any gold circle board member or director present on sunday at clairwood?

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  • The Madji
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Re: Re: Clairwood Park 17 Mar 2013, Sun

12 years 3 months ago
#328944
The Madji Wrote:
> Could someone post the Rule governing false starts
> ? A poster stated that a false start can only be
> declared should a runner/runners be given an
> unfair advantage by the start .... I would like
> to get some clarity on the 'false start' rulings.


????????????????

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  • Craig Eudey
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Re: Re: Clairwood Park 17 Mar 2013, Sun

12 years 3 months ago
#328948
Starter has a hearing on Friday morning concerning the start. We will know more after that.

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  • Wouter
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Re: Re: Clairwood Park 17 Mar 2013, Sun

12 years 3 months ago
#328950
CHIPPY Wrote:
> Wouter Wrote:
>
>
> > OTT Wrote:
> >
>
>
> >
> > > Simply put, we have a culture of hiding
> behind
> > > ignorance in this country. When the shit hits
> > the
> > > fan, it's eish, I didn't know! The fact that
> > Anton
> > > Marcus looked around as well (whilst in the
> > lead)
> > > indicates he knew something was wrong. I do
> > accept
> > > that in rugby and soccer they play to the
> > whistle.
> > > How do we know that Forbes did not know
> exactly
> > > what the rules were but decided to carry on
> as
> > he
> > > believed he could win.
> > >
> > > An all-round Fcuk up
> >
> > ---
> >
> > Bwahahaha if you are referring to me as the
> > ignorant one...
> >
> > if Forbes didnt ride out his mount in the end,
> his
> > mount would of been scratched, then the
> R12000-00
> > stake money he obtained (for finishing 3rd with
> > being faulted) would be R0-00 and the owner
> would
> > take the R12000-00 over the R0-00 in the end...
> > (though I'm sure he would ultimately want a
> re-run
> > on March 24th with races 7-9) Forbes also
> realised
> > that the starter was not going to call the race
> a
> > false start that is why he rode his horse out
> in
> > the end... so do you pull up your horse and
> give
> > it no chance or push it and give it some sort
> of
> > chance?
> >
> > Dude, maybe they didn't even realise that the
> > gates did not open, and they were all looking
> > around to see who is placed where etc, to gauge
> > their runs going into the final 400m... To even
> > think Marcus is to be blamed is funny, I can
> > recall it went the other way the once where it
> was
> > a false start and he rode his horse out, they
> had
> > to scratch his mount as he was spent up... why
> not
> > blame the second place jock too, for not
> allowing
> > MS to win due to what transpired...
> >
> > It is definitely not an all round Fcuk up as
> you
> > say, but the Fcuk up of the starter, who needs
> to
> > be held accountable...
> > The only person to be blamed in this instance
> is
> > the starter, for not calling it a false start...
> I
> > had no money down so I'm not talking from the
> > pocket...
> >
> > BOTTOM LINE - STARTER = FAULT
>
> No siren means RACE ON!
> Had Alec stopped riding then he would be punished
> for not giving his horse every chance, a lose/lose
> situation on his part through no fault of his
> own.
>
> Personally the 1st infringement should over rule
> the preceding ones, much like in Rugby, but the
> end result is what the NHRA has looked at, as per
> the Rules.

---

Thanks Chippy for clearing up that issue (tu)

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Re: Re: Clairwood Park 17 Mar 2013, Sun

12 years 3 months ago
#329019
pirates Wrote:
> to put this issue to bed COULD PERHAPS HIBS OR
> SCOTIA contact the nhra and get the COMPLETE
> RULING regarding this incident including the one
> that rob faux refers to and in fact another that
> an attorney informed me last night could have been
> used to overide this shocking outcome..perhaps
> dave thistleton can get it all for us and let us
> have more than one sided opinions like we heard
> last nite on the gold circle sponsored winning
> ways and his column in the newspaper.....and i ask
> again was any gold circle board member or director
> present on sunday at clairwood?

Article today:

David Thiselton
Gold Circle and Phumelela, in an act of goodwill after the controversy surrounding race 6 at Clairwood on Sunday, have carried over the gross win pool from the race onto the Easter Handicap at Clairwood on March 31.
“In terms of their Totalisator licenses, the Racing Operators are bound by the rules of the National Horseracing Authorities and are obliged to pay dividends based on the official “all clear” result as declared by the NHA,” said a Gold Circle press release yesterday.
A stipulation added to Rule 61.5.10.1, that many feared would “come and bite us one day”, was fundamental to Sunday’s fiasco.
However, there was more to it than that, and the age and state of the starting stalls as well as the starter and the procedures at the start have also been put under scrutiny.
Racecourse security also came into question, as besides the ugly scenes outside the weighing room, a dog appeared on the course during this race, of all races, and ran behind the horses.
My Sanctuary, the odds-on favourite at the centre of it all, gave notice that this wasn’t going to be her day when suddenly veering sideways and dumping jockey Alec Forbes shortly before loading had begun.
She was then fractious in the pens, rearing, before sitting down on her haunches.
The veterinarian at the start had her backed out and trotted around before declaring her fit to race.
Many have questioned whether she should not have been scratched anyway as she appeared to have hit her head.
The veterinarian did notice some hair missing on the nasal bone, but didn’t consider it significant.
Furthermore, there is no doubt that My Sanctuary hit the gate very hard later on when it didn’t open and that was likely the chief cause of the head injury diagnosed after the race.
A further question was whether, due to the delay, all of the horses should not have been backed out and the starting stalls re-tested.
The starter has also come under criticism for missing the gate opening slowly and an inquiry will be held.
One of his defence points is likely to be that television gives a front on view, while the starter has a side on view.
The angle he stands at apparently becomes even smaller in small fields at Clairwood as the stalls are placed in the centre and the cable from his rostrum has further to reach.
Recently there have been a couple of incidents where the stipendiary stewards have overruled the starter after a “no start” had been declared.
In both cases the majority of jockeys did not hear the false start siren and the stipendiaries used their discretion in declaring all horses runners, as opposed to making the race null and void.
The question has been raised why they could not have done the opposite in this case, especially in light of Forbes and at least one other jockey having hesitated momentarily after initially believing it to have been a false start.
The answer is that there is no provision made to overrule in the case where a starter did not declare a “no start”.
Furthermore, the discretionary power that the stipendiaries believed they had in the two aforementioned cases arose from an ambiguity in the wording of rule 61.5.11 and the discretionary clause has since been removed.
My Sanctuary’s eventual third-place finish qualified her for the PA and also the Pick 6, as the first and second horses were both first-timers.
However, if she had been declared a non-runner, she would have still qualified for those two bets as the second favourite won the race.
Furthermore, backers who had her in wins, places and in the Jackpot were losers with the result standing.
In 2009 the provision was added to rule 61.5.10.1, which deals with “no starts” through faulty starting stalls or other causes, and states that a horse can only be declared a non-runner if it did not finish in the first four.
The stipendiary stewards were bound by this law and could not declare the horse a non-runner, much to the dismay and subsequent anger of punters, who then forced the abandonment of the meeting.
The operators were involved in the lengthy discussions and debate when the 2009 provision was added.
The provision was made chiefly to protect owners and breeders, who would, for example, be denied a sizeable cheque and black type if a horse was declared a non-runner after finishing placed in a big race.
Furthermore, there was a case in Johannesburg, in which a tote favourite had finished third, but was then declared a non-runner, knocking many punters out of the PA, as the new favourite had finished last..
In another recent case an owner had a big bet on his winning horse and was subsequently subjected to a deduction in the region of 80% because the odds-on favourite, which had been impeded at the start, had faded late into fifth place.
There have been suggestions that two separate results could be declared, a punter friendly one and an owner friendly one, but this would cause much confusion in the declaration of the result.
Rob de Kock, the CEO of the National Horseracing Authority, after emphasising the binding nature of the law, said that he had felt sorry for the punters.
He said that the law would be looked at again, but added that it appeared impossible to create one that would be able to provide an absolutely certain outcome and still please all interested parties in every circumstance.
Robert Bloomberg, a well known owner, racing analyst and lawyer, believes a discretionary clause should be put into the rule.
“The discretionary clause must involve the operator, stipendiary stewards and National Horseracing Authority (NHA) preferably through the Racing Control Executive Dave McGillivray,” said Bloomberg.
If Bloomberg’s suggestion can prevent a repeat of the ugly scenes at Clairwood on Sunday it should be seriously considered.

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  • Pirhobeta
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Re: Re: Clairwood Park 17 Mar 2013, Sun

12 years 3 months ago
#329252
Fark...blame the Starter....while he did make the mistake....the "authorities" exacerbated the situation by not correcting the mistake and making some palooka decision that they knew was not ethical....and then hide behind the farking rules....

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  • Craig Eudey
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Re: Re: Clairwood Park 17 Mar 2013, Sun

12 years 3 months ago
#329272
P they are bound by the rules in front of them. If they had made her a non runner the owner could have contested it and said that the rule states that she is a runner and where is my momey! Starters at fault but we will see what happens friday as there are some mitigating circumstances apparently.

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  • Frodo
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Re: Re: Clairwood Park 17 Mar 2013, Sun

12 years 3 months ago
#329279
'There have been suggestions that two separate results could be declared, a punter friendly one and an owner friendly one, but this would cause much confusion in the declaration of the result'

Really? Imo rather have 'much confusion' than total chaos. The 'official' result for dividend puposes should have been that the horse is declared a non-runner; I agree a 'discretionary clause' should then be included to address the 'owner friendly' issue - no rocket science imo

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  • shrek
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Re: Re: Clairwood Park 17 Mar 2013, Sun

12 years 3 months ago
#329288
Frodo, can we ever get a happy medium. What happens if the favorite ran 5th then everyone gets blow out of their PA after originally qualifying. This is a very difficult one to deal with if not caught at the start.

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  • Frodo
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Re: Re: Clairwood Park 17 Mar 2013, Sun

12 years 3 months ago
#329301
Ok shrek I agree, perhaps not that straighforward, but I still think that when there is some shenanigans at the start (or during the race), the responsible stipe should have the power to invoke a 'discretionary clause'; the overriding principle of this 'discretionary clause' should be that neirther the punter or the owner should be disadvantaged by the outcome of any action taken deciding the result of the race - if this means different / separate rules for specific cases, these conditions / rules should be spelled out in the 'discretionay clause'

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  • Marsellus Wallace
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Re: Re: Clairwood Park 17 Mar 2013, Sun

12 years 3 months ago
#329324
quetion is: was the race a fair race for all horses?answer is No, therefore declare a false start (even if the starter missed it the stipes should). no rocket science to me.

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  • Wouter
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Re: Re: Clairwood Park 17 Mar 2013, Sun

12 years 3 months ago
#329325
keniza999 Wrote:
> quetion is: was the race a fair race for all
> horses?answer is No, therefore declare a false
> start (even if the starter missed it the stipes
> should). no rocket science to me.

---

Bound by Rules apparently...

Would like to Solotrama come back with the other ruling, regarding false starts... waiting patiently...

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