Weight in handicaps:S

i know the clan can answer this one...

in my simple understanding in a handicap race all the runners carry weight based on their MR so that in theory every horse has an equal chance of winning however i
often hear the expression 'out at the weights' what does it really mean? in handicaps all runners except the top horse receives some weight but when is weight received or
given too little or too much for a particular horse? i suspect that the reason Aldery won the previous race had to do with the amount of weight she was receiving correct?

`Out of the weights` mean that your carrying a weight higher than you should do,for example when you carry a weight higher than you should in a conditions race were the min and maximuim weights are closer than they would be in A hcp.

Short of it, your bad in at the weights

hibernia Wrote:

---

> `Out of the weights` mean that your carrying a
> weight higher than you should do,for example when
> you carry a weight higher than you should in a
> conditions race were the min and maximuim weights
> are closer than they would be in A hcp.
>
> Short of it, your bad in at the weights

Hibernia what do u mean by 'you carrying a weight higher than u should do' what is that based on? take for an example a three horse field: hsr1 MR=80,wgt=60; hrs2 MR=78,wgt=59; hrs3 MR=77,wgt=58.5...how can u tell what weight should each horse carry

I would assume it has to do with the conditions of the handicap as well as the age and sex of the horse?

Tommy do you perhaps have an example?

Not sure I know enough about handicapping to be able to give you a definitive answer. It has to do with the certain conditions stipulated at the top of the race header, also has to do with the Weight for Age (WFA) scale, in other words weights get set according tot he age of a horse. 2 year olds in handicaps will carry up to 12.5kg's less than they supposed to, 3 year olds will carry up to 8kg's less than they supposed to ect.

You have to take into account a few factors.

Age of a horse
Handicap mark (MR)
The benchmark weight (Top rated horse)
Conditions of the handicap
Distance of the race



This is about as much as I know. Perhaps Magic or Rob Faux can help you out with a proper explanation?

Tommy if i can quote you, in one of your posts you said about Pier Jordan "There are many that hold him at the weights." please elaborate

In the PJ case it was pretty clear cut.

When PJ ran in the spring challenge (his first run back after his break) the weights were set according to the "rules" of the race. In other words the horses handicap was not the overriding factor in setting the weights. It could have been a plated race. (I can't remember which it was now)

PJ carried lets say for the sake of argument 57kg's in that race as he had not run in a while and had not won his previous race.
Other horses like Captain Scott and Galanthus carried weights very similar to that of PJ....lets say the following:

Captain Scott.......56.5kg's
Galanthus.............56 kg's

PJ beat both those horses by about a half a length or thereabouts. Galanthus went on to win another handicap after this run so.......

Captain Scott weights in Charity Miile went up to lets say 57kg's (according to weights set in a HANDICAP)
Galanthus weight went up to lets say 58.5kg's
PJ went up to 61.5kg's

These weight changes are because they went from a plated race to a handicap.

Lets compare weights:

PJ compared to Captain Scott:

Spring challenge:

PJ = 57kg's
Captain Scott = 56.5kg's
Weight difference = 0.5kg's, even though PJ is higher in the handicaps then what Captain Scott is.

PJ compared to Galanthus:

PJ = 57kg's
Galanthus = 56kg's
Weight difference is 1kg even though PJ is significantly higher in the handicap

NOW lets look at weights for Charity Mile:

PJ versus Captain Scott:

PJ = 61.5kg's
Captain Scott = 57kg's
Weight difference = 4.5kg's in favour of Captain Scott.
In their last start PJ beat Captaion Scott by only half a length, now there is a 4.5kg swing in the weights which should account for about a 9 length reversal ON PAPER.

PJ versus Galanthus:

PJ = 61.5kg's
Galanthus = 58.5kg's
Weight difference = 3kg's in Galanthus' favour, which should be around a 6 length reversal ON PAPER

PLEASE NOTE: The weights used above ARE FOR EXPLANATORY PURPOSES ONLY. I'm doing this off the top of my head to illustrate my point.

you can see that the weights in the Charity mile vastly favour both Galanthus and Captain Scott.....As far as Pierre Jourdan is concerned. They should in theory both have finished ahead of PJ on their Spring Challenge form, HOWEVER, both finished behind PJ. That just goes to show that on a line through Galanthus and Captain Scott, PJ ran a great race in defeat. He suffered from 2nd run after a long layoff syndrome (in my opinion), he was underdone to leave some work for Summer Cup AND he was badly off at the weights due to his official MR.

This may look messy but I hope it explains why PJ was badly off with the two horses used as an example above!

What Tommy is saying ,in a nutshell is that when Pj met Galanthas and Captain scott(in fact all the runners that raced in the spring challenge race ) the weights favoured him as it was not based on handicap(mr ) ratings whereas in the november handicap PJ met the same rivals(now on handicap terms ) under sufferance when coparing those two specific races .

as for Alderry she was weighted according to her (mr) in the november ,so according to the hadicapper she was at no advantage going into the race as she carried what her (mr) specified .

Tommy ,the universally accepted weight factor always was 1pd = 1/2 lgth @ 1mile (so in metric terms that should convert to 1kg = 1.1 of a lgth @ 1600m)

Your logic is correct but your adjustment factor is excessive!

ok Tommy i think i get this now, so we can say in the spring challenge Captain Scott & Galanthus were 'out at the weights' when compared to PJ because they carried
too much than they need to in order to beat PJ who had a superior rating. However the situation was reversed in the charity mile, PJ was 'out at the weights' because he
was giving too much weight to the horses he had beaten by only half a length.

just noted that Bulsara came fourth in the charity mile beating both Captain Scott and Galanthus by about 2lengths for a half a kg change in weight even though they had
beaten him by about 4 lengths in the spring challenge, could it be that these two horses ran below par due the wide draw or perhaps Bulsara's previous race was
below par...

interesting stuff

In a nutshell "out at the weights" in a handicap means that racing analysts, in their humble opinions, (punters, media, et al) rate the horse at a lower MR than the official handicappers rate him and vice versa with "in at the weights". An example could be Rudra in the Charity Mile where he ran with a MR of 114 but his previous runs show that he hasnt been better than probably say 108 which equates to 3kg "out at the weights" over 1600m.