Training or Genetics

Saturdays racing has raised a question for me,and I am interested in the opinion of the experts in the field of pedigrees(if anybody has done research on this issue it will be Karel!)
My comments on Angel Witch, which I could find little evidence of stamina on the female side,but which would have won even if they had done another lap.

Even more interesting is Ancestrol Fore...a look at the dams side,going back 3 generations,there is no evidence of form past a mile,except for AF,who won over 2400,but only after change to MDK.(in fact,up until then the, the form looked best up to mile)

My question is......can training methods be more influential than genetics?Is there any research on this? Is this why some stables seem to have a better record with stayers,and others with sprinters?

If I had been bidding at a sale,with the catalogue pedigree in front of me,I would have believed I was buying a miler,tops,in either of the above.

Oasis dream champion sprinter is producing sprinters and stayers atm,although his earlier progeny was all speed ,Oasis Dream

the world of sport has changed.
all you need it some ability and then chemical engineering..if you wish to call it training methods its fine by me.

its like body buiders...
chemical engineering..or training methods..

pedigree means little today...conformation...size and some ability..the staying will be enhanced by chemical engineering...
and its getting better..every year..
give me a D division winner...3 year old over 1600m and see...champion

Scheaming and plotting.

Just wait when its a trainer or owners birthday the horse will win regardless of its
form, genetics or training methods

If i may...i think of late [last 10 years] SA Racing neglected staying races and breeders opt to try and breed sprint / milers than can go up to 2000m as our most feature races are run over these trips based on using Tesio Power which is a good breeding program for guidelines like dosage [best distance for a specific breeding combo in last 4 generations]. A good study is the X -Factor - outlining large heart carriers in certain pedigrees. I personally feel quite a few runners lately stay because we have a lack of real stayers and these bred to run milers / middle distance horses compete due to the lack of stayers. Just my opinion.

I still feel chromosomes and x-factor studies in earlier pedigrees hold the key except for lack of purely bred stayers.

Rob - you propably know pedigrees but the site thoroughbred horse pedigree [USA Site] is very informative on this and other than this Karel's affinities in Sporting Post very helpful.

It's been very difficult for breeders to breed "proper" sprinters for a while, especially from the sire line point of view.

We haven't really had any sprinting sires who made the grade for a while other than National Assembly, and he too could give you a miler (or even a National Emblem) and so is a "qualified" sprinting sire.

For a long time most of our better stallions were of a speedy nature until the end of the Harry Hotspur/Golden Thatch era.

Dynasty's full brother won the Gold Vase and ran 2nd in the Gold Cup, and his full sister ran 2nd in the Natal Oaks. He never bothered to run in a race shorter than a mile. If you breed to Dynasty you must accept you could end up with a stayer, no matter how fast your mare is.

Rob's point is valid though, Ancestral Fore stayed a true 3200 with 56 as a 3yo and his female line gave no hints this could happen. As good De Kock is as a trainer, even he said you can't fake stamina.

Jack,your post highlights another point,which is,that it appears some sires exert most of the influence,whereas others seem to rely entirely on the influence of the dam line.
How accurately can it be predicted whether progeny will have speed or stamina? and back to the beginning.....how much can training methods influence it?

I'm betting that Karel will have done some research/reading on this aspect!

Rob,

for what it's worth, I started taking an interest in breeding just as Foveros started his career. Foveros started at Jan de Clerq's Zevenbergen Stud and I believe they had a tough time getting Foveros going in the industry.

I guess he must have thrown to the mare because his first crop included Simonside (and maybe Enforce) crack sprinter and Aquanaut possibly our best stayer ever. They came in all shapes and sizes, and all aptitudes.

Without putting words in your mouth, I think we all know that what God gave you is what God gave you (ie the genetics have spoken and you are what you are) so what remains is the effect of the trainer.

There is plenty of stamina in Dynasty's pedigree. Some pundits predicted that Fort Wood would fail at stud in SA because he was a genuine stayer. Or a plodder, to be unkind. Casey Tibbs is another son of Sadler's Wells with stamina. Look what a step up to 2400m did for Cree Lodge.