Dave Mollet ! Who does he think he is ?

Greenbook, what Mollie is saying tho, is that if a seller adds an unnecessary 11c per R1 to the selling price,we shouldn't be grateful for the 'sale'price of 10% off!
Ie. at the present overrounds,in most races the stretch is not a stretch......if you dont get the basic stretch you are being robbed!

When a book stands at 148%,as it was when Mollie complained,getting evens about a 9/10 shot is hardly a bargain.

rob, i think we are in agreement, in fact.

barry, i would counter your assessment by suggesting two things. first you are talking about how the profits are split, and if licensed bookies are not made to split their profits in a way that secures the future of racing, then that is a structural or a regulatory problem: it is not the bookmakers' fault. second, if you then make the tote too expensive for the punter, he will gamble elsewhere. that could be with a licensed bookie (which at least keeps the money in the game) or it could be offshore with a william hill or a betfair. or the punter may just prefer to go on a holiday to vegas. i am not suggesting that racing must bet to 103% like a slot machine, because racing is clearly a very different form of entertainment. but there must be an acknowledgement that charging the punter to the limits that the law allows, as Phumelela and the PMU in France (amongst others) do is naive in the extreme and risks the punter finding value elsewhere. equally , if you also make racing too expensive for the bookies to bet on - say because you are taking 66% of their profits away for the racing club and to stakes - then they will promote other sports in preference to your sport. it depends who you want to be your friends, and who you want to be your competitors.

Guys we are so far away from where we started...
none the less heres my 2p's worth regarding the other topic,where guys are chatting abouth the tote and oppositions like Betfair.

Betfair is a betting exchange, very different to the traditional forms of tote or bookmaker betting. A betting exchange is essentially a stock market platform taken across to betting on racing and sport.
On the Betfair exchange, customers bet against each other, rather than into a pool ,like the tote or against a bookie. It’s as simple as finding a person with a differing opinion to you. Betfair simply match opposing bets and take a small commission – only from the winner.
So with all you guys hating Bookies and wanting to bring in Betfair as an opposition to Bookies ,how is that going to help the game no money is going back into the game , all this is going to do is make you a “Bookie” , and from where i’m sitting thats all i can see.
I'm Just curious if MR Irwin is a punter and if so does he only bet with the tote?
Thats it no more ...

I bet only with the tote.

Yes, I am a punter.

Betfair is a cancer on the game until it starts paying something significant into the sport to bolster it.

Right now all we hear are loud sucking noises!

A take out of as little as 10 percent divided 3 ways between a racing club (4 percent), prize money (4 percent) and the tote (2 percent) would be fair and could fund the entire lot.

Exchanges would soon lose their appeal if they were taking a bigger commision and would not be so attractive to punters! Although betfair/exchanges plough alot of money into racing thru sponsorship,its only a fraction of what the tote or bookmakers put into racing.
Punters are important to racing,having a tote monopoly is not an option

no open bets here uktote.betfair.com/

barry, i have never found anyone who can show me that betfair has had a detrimental effect on the finances of racing in any country, and especially not in those countries where it is licensed and works legitimately within the local industry

A tote is nothing else but a betting exchange.Winners receive what losers have lost, minus the the takeout by the facilitator.
A betting exchange is a facilitator in the same way, except that the takeout is not as high presently,for fixed odds betting.

Legalising exchanges(excluding any open bet)with a takeout designed to make some contribution to stakes,must be a step in the right direction.
Banning all fixed odds betting will just lead to an emergence of bucket shops and nobody gains.
Skilled bookmakers,although no longer protected by a lience,will have the whole market as a customer base,and will use such skill to thrive.Those who fail were only surviving thru protectionism(sic) anyway and the prices in a free market will adjust accordingly.
The difference between tote and bookies payouts has been compared for years....how is it that the tote often competes favourably with the official SP(nett),and yet has over 4x's the deduction. Makes you think!

As a matter of interest can anybody offer an explanation as to why the following NHA rule is in place........
72.4 BETTING EXCHANGES
72.4.1 An OWNER, TRAINER,STABLE EMPLOYEE or their respective SPOUSES shall not,directly or indirectly,place a bet with a Betting Exchange in respect of a HORSE owned,trained or cared for by such OWNER,TRAINERand/or STABLE EMPLOYEE other than that such HORSE will win the RACE in which it is to participate.
72.4.2 It shall be an offence for any PERSON to act in contravention of rule72.4.1

Does that mean that the NHA do not believe that betting with a betting exchange is illegal,except as above?

any licensed bookmaker who throws in the towel in order to trade on an exchange was never a proper bookmaker anyway. proper bookmakers make a book by adjusting the bets and the prices they accept constantly. the goal of a proper bookmaker is to pay winners what losers have lost, minus a takeout (the overround). ring any bells? an exchange only lets you make a book one bet at a time and if your price is not the best price you don't get matched. you can't be a bookmaker on an exchange - that is, unless you offer the best price on every runner (but you can definitely punt in order to profit).

the problem as it appears to me is that there are very few proper bookmakers in SA, and a lot of licensed punters. how else do you explain the ridiculous situation where the bookie cuts the price on a claimed runner so far that it's unbackable? basically, when he does that he's saying "i've got a big enough bet against that horse - no more"

Greenbook,when I was involved in a cubicle at Kempton Park,there wasn't enough spread of liquidity to properly "make a book"and I am told that few SA bookmakers manage it.Most races have very few horses in high demand,again,so I'm told.
I assume that bookmakers on Interbet find it worthwhile,which is an exchange,restricted only by licence.
I am led to believe that some guys have BOT programmes which do construct the laying of an entire book,but have seen no evidence!
It will be very interesting to see how it all evolves!

The point still remains that bookies in SA seem to be in a unique position
a) They have successfully cut any real risk of betting coups by having a ridiculously "LOW value claim system"
b) Put very little back into race sponsorship (believe me the main reason Clyde has this newly created position in Phum is because they obviously finding it VERY difficult to find sponsors for race stakes) therby creating a low risk reasonable profit buss with low overheads
c) Utilise horseracing paid for by owners and tote punters to create the environment for their bussiness

This R25k claim system in my opinion is rubbish

Bookmaking/totes are relics of the past for anyone vaguely serious about punting. Exchanges have completely revolusionised sports/racing. Racing needs to harness this new revolution to have any chance of growing interest in the sport.