Racing may well be rendered economically unsustainable

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3 weeks 3 days ago #756648 by Bob Brogan
Bob Brogan created the topic: Racing may well be rendered economically unsustainable
The Gauteng provincial government is risking the collapse of the entire 100-year-old horse racing industry in South Africa, the JSE-listed Phumelela says in court papers.

Read More www.businessinsider.co.za/phumelela-says...t-of-business-2019-4

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3 weeks 3 days ago #756650 by Over the Air
Over the Air replied the topic: Racing may well be rendered economically unsustainable
Cry me a river.

Carry on withholding dividends to shareholders and you will be fine big P

If you need the reason for racing being in the position that it is, go have a look in the mirror. You have raped and plundered this sport to your advantage for decades now. This is no ones fault besides your own. I cannot think of one JSE listed company who enjoys a 50/50 tax rebate with any provincial or national government. The initial agreement was for 10 years, you fleeced for 18 so in my opinion, you should PAY BACK THE MONEY
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3 weeks 3 days ago #756673 by elmer
elmer replied the topic: Racing may well be rendered economically unsustainable
Yes you are probably correct in that to much has been taken out by a few .
But what does the Gambling Board do with the R75m they get a year?
Also the 6% is the deduction from winning bets
I don't know but do the Bookmakers deduct from the bets like the Jackpot Pick 6 etc
If the do the amount should be much greater
I believe the amount of these bets they hold is huge maybe bigger than the operator

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3 weeks 3 days ago #756682 by Garrick
Garrick replied the topic: Racing may well be rendered economically unsustainable
I can't help but giggle resignedly when reading this thread. To answer some of the questions :

OTA -

Pay Back The Money......You are quite right but out of where? ;
The now non-existent dividend which has probably been unwarrantedly paid at an inflated level over the past few years to satisfy selected shareholders' agendas.

The share price? Oops.

Many punters probably don't fully appreciate the developing crisis. And why should they care? They've (stupidly in my opinion) continued funding an extortionate takeout via Saftote which regularly defrauds them with R1 dividends and other shenanigans whilst expecting them to like it. Chickens? Roosting? Sitting? Shitting on the heads of management is now starting to look more realistic.......

Elmer -

What does the Gambling board do with R75 million? Really? They spend it, Elmer! Like any other self respecting government or quasi government department. On what? Now there you have got me!

Bookmakers deduct 6% from WINNING bets only. Saftote deducts up to 25% from the POOL before a dividend (sic) is declared. The difference is that both winners and losers contribute in the case of Saftote. This system also has the bizarre ability to turn winners into nett losers! But that's for another time WHEN SOMEONE ACTUALLY COMPLAINS.

(Declining turnover? Surely that's not a muted protest of some sort? Nah.)

My understanding is that bookmakers do indeed hold more money than Saftote. Simple reasons : Better service, provision of credit to select clients and because punters act in their own best interests where they believe they will get the best deal!

No punter gets up in the morning and asks themselves the question : Now what can I do today to support and foster racing?

The question they really ask is :

How can I make money out of punting today?

The answer : With difficulty! Saftote makes it nigh impossible unless you count a R1 dividend as a win! Or you specialise in 'lottery type' bets where you like playing against odds of hundreds of thousands to one.

Each to his own.
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3 weeks 3 days ago - 3 weeks 3 days ago #756687 by Mac
Mac replied the topic: Racing may well be rendered economically unsustainable
Just one comment for Garrick. Bookmakers not only deduct 6% but also their margin or over round say 16% (Interbet say 10% plus 3% commission). So a punter pays in total abt 22% not just 6% when punting with a bookie.


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3 weeks 3 days ago #756692 by durbs
durbs replied the topic: Racing may well be rendered economically unsustainable
Who is the person,or people,responsible for the predicament that SA racing is in today?
Why are they still in their positions now that Jooste is gone?
Time for owners and trainers,they the ones with the biggest say,to vote these leeches out before trainers,jockeys and grooms are out of a job.
We have been complaining for so long now and nothing has changed.
Owners don't buy anymore horses.
Trainers don't nominate your horses for any races.
Punters don't back on the tote.
Typical African style,hold them to ransom and let's see what happens.

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3 weeks 3 days ago - 3 weeks 3 days ago #756709 by Garrick
Garrick replied the topic: Racing may well be rendered economically unsustainable

Mac wrote: Just one comment for Garrick. Bookmakers not only deduct 6% but also their margin or over round say 16% (Interbet say 10% plus 3% commission). So a punter pays in total abt 22% not just 6% when punting with a bookie.


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100% Agreed, Mac.

Just one point - You overstated the Interbet charge which actually works out at a smidgeon below 9% in total on a single bet if you check your account. Furthermore one normally covers the difference between standard betting tax & the Interbet charges ( Betting tax + Interbet Charge + VAT ) through the largely higher odds on offer on the site.

I don't begrudge anyone a profit and/or charging me for a service which is disclosed up front. But I would seriously resent going through a betting exercise successfully only to find my return on the wager was NIL.

That's not to say it could not happen on Interbet - we all know what can transpire in the event of a dead heat or the late scratching of a fancied runner. Other than those two issues I struggle to think where one would strike a bet and not show a profit if successful; which is not the case with Saftote & about which they have remained smugly quiet for decades.
Last Edit: 3 weeks 3 days ago by Garrick.
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3 weeks 3 days ago #756713 by Garrick
Garrick replied the topic: Racing may well be rendered economically unsustainable

durbs wrote: Who is the person,or people,responsible for the predicament that SA racing is in today?
Why are they still in their positions now that Jooste is gone?
Time for owners and trainers,they the ones with the biggest say,to vote these leeches out before trainers,jockeys and grooms are out of a job.
We have been complaining for so long now and nothing has changed.
Owners don't buy anymore horses.
Trainers don't nominate your horses for any races.
Punters don't back on the tote.
Typical African style,hold them to ransom and let's see what happens.


Durbs - I most certainly don't have the definitive answers to your questions or the solutions to the problem.

But perhaps (and much like an alcoholic) the sport might still need to descend right into the gutter of destitution and then hopefully rebuild out of that wreckage.

I have been active in racing for 46 years and my problem nowadays (unlike when I was younger) is that I no longer really see the relevance or need for it. All I see is a mechanism which largely brutalises and exploits animals for entertainment, wrecks social structures through gambling and appears to attract every passing carpetbagger, snake oil salesman and fraudster in search of the mythical 'quick buck'.

There are a number of countries which do not have racing. Would it be such a terrible thing if we were to join that group?
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3 weeks 2 days ago #756755 by the good
the good replied the topic: Racing may well be rendered economically unsustainable
Notice big reduction in stakes on the Highveld from May onwards. Is this the start of a huge downward spiral? Sales etc will be affected.

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3 weeks 2 days ago #756758 by Bob Brogan
Bob Brogan replied the topic: Racing may well be rendered economically unsustainable

the good wrote: Notice big reduction in stakes on the Highveld from May onwards. Is this the start of a huge downward spiral? Sales etc will be affected.


Where’s MDK and Savage?

Is this not just the norm for the off season ?

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3 weeks 2 days ago #756759 by elmer
elmer replied the topic: Racing may well be rendered economically unsustainable
Racing is a dying business
Cape Town has about 340 less horses in training than 2 years ago
Jobs for grooms lost about 135 -145
There are less races so less income for trainers jockeys and all others
employed in the industry
The breeding is affected vets transport and many others
A sad story

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3 weeks 2 days ago #756769 by Tony Mincione
Tony Mincione replied the topic: Racing may well be rendered economically unsustainable
I definitely can't remember my last drive-in movie. Now I can't remember which movie I last saw in a cinema. Queues, kids, noise, bubblegum, crap food at stupid prices....versus infinite choice, home comfort, my food choice, surround sound....mall cinemas may also be a dying business.

Maybe racing is a dying business. I can just remember snatches of memories of facilities and bars that existed before the new grandstands were built, and the full parking lots.

I like to gamble and I can't find a replacement for horses. Although some of my friends stopped playing horses, most still keep an eye on it and none moved over to other gambling. None of them hate horse racing, but all feel pissed off. I'm not sure each case, but nearly every one seems to want to punish the game for ...umm.. "disloyalty" seems to be my best one word, or some form of deep disappointment. They all still love the horses part though.

There are many observations on this thread about how bad it is, but no one has said they think the tax should continue to Phumelela. I can't believe anyone thinks the punters should be taxed at all. There are already all sorts of taxes, not to mention the built in house take, I don't see why a profit making company should get 1 cent from a punter from a tax. Earn it and deserve it.

To be honest, I think the litigiously greedy nature of Phumelela over past years, which escalated into confrontations in court including with the Gambling Regulators has probably triggered this new line of thinking. I can imaging the Regulator thinking: "why are we sharing our loot with those pricks, we can keep the whole R150 mill. let's issue a decree." Shareholders of the company should perhaps have a word with their managers, and ask them if it's good strategy to be pissing in their own bathwater (so to speak).

Perhaps (without the handout) dividends will collapse, then share prices will follow, and the RA and perhaps some trusty people can snap up the shares, delist, take all the income, and become an organisation for the sport of horse racing. So go back to square one, in other words.
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3 weeks 2 days ago #756775 by LSU
LSU replied the topic: Racing may well be rendered economically unsustainable
It was fine for Phumelela to receive the tax benefit whilst fulfilling their mandate to take care of racing and ensuring that jobs were protected. Since it has transpired that tens of thousands of jobs have been lost across the industry and lately the company itself over the time of their involvement it is clear that tax breaks should not be supported. It is pretty obvious that racing is not getting any support outside of just making the wheels turn so i guess the chickens are coming home to roost.

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3 weeks 2 days ago #756777 by Mac
Mac replied the topic: Re:Racing may well be rendered economically unsustainable
Borrowdale might soon be gone and when SA racing is finally gone Ngong will show us their middle finger. Lol


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3 weeks 2 days ago #756779 by Mac
Mac replied the topic: Re:Racing may well be rendered economically unsustainable
There used to be horseracing in Zambia too.


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3 weeks 2 days ago #756780 by Mac
Mac replied the topic: Re:Racing may well be rendered economically unsustainable
...and in Nigeria


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3 weeks 2 days ago #756789 by oscar
oscar replied the topic: Re:Racing may well be rendered economically unsustainable
OTA/Garrick 100%

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3 weeks 2 days ago #756794 by Dave Scott
Dave Scott replied the topic: Re:Racing may well be rendered economically unsustainable
Lets also have consideration for the "punter" whether is the 25% take out from the pool or the 6% tax on winnings the source is the "punters" money and remember this cash has already been tax ........

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3 weeks 2 days ago #756796 by MissT
MissT replied the topic: Re:Racing may well be rendered economically unsustainable
Well said Dave !! The Punters The Punters!!! Our income is taxed as we earn then those that spend on exotics lose another 25% before they start!!! Then I get brave and whether its 100 rand or 10 grand I have to to take the gamble on a horse which has not only to finish the race but win it as well. Heavens above it wins and we get all excited only to find that you only getting your cash back as it only pays one rand. So no profit just daylight f%@$ing robbery. They deserve everything they get. We must be crazy to continue to support this game. If only Puntets would completely boycott the tote for an entire month they might just open their eyes. On the other hand the gravy train just chugs along. Amazing.
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3 weeks 2 days ago #756799 by manwatweet
manwatweet replied the topic: Re:Racing may well be rendered economically unsustainable

Mac wrote: Borrowdale might soon be gone and when SA racing is finally gone Ngong will show us their middle finger. Lol


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The perfect script for a horror movie................

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