Cape trainers hit back

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2 weeks 1 day ago #754145 by Bob Brogan
Bob Brogan created the topic: Cape trainers hit back
Western Cape trainers have hit back at suggestions that they are swamping their Port Elizabeth counterparts with their better class horses and so providing unfair competition.

The Sporting Post website led on Saturday with a piece headlined “Should PE Be Closed To Cape Town Raiders” and cited an unnamed local trainer commenting on Facebook:

“What’s on my mind? They don’t run their horses in Cape Town yet they come to PE by the truckload and steal honey from our pot.

“Just have a look at the PE nominations. My argument is that they race four-horse fields in Cape Town – they don’t run their horses but will send three trucks to PE.”

Cape Town trainers have increased their raiding parties since the Met, largely because there is an average of only one meeting a week in the mother city during February and March, but last Friday’s Fairview fixture was the final straw for the Facebook writer.

Justin Snaith and Candice Bass-Robinson each had two winners and Vaughan Marshall one. Alan Greeff (3) and Jacques Strydom were the only locals to get a look in.

However, Bass-Robinson hit back at the criticism, saying: “In the UK and in Australia trainers travel their horses all over the place. Indeed they do this in countries round the world so why should we be confined to our own back yard? In any case a little bit of competition is healthy.

“Also it’s not just a matter of putting a horse on a float. It costs R6,000 just for the transport of the horse and then there is the flight for the assistant trainer.”

Justin Snaith fully agreed and pointed to the positive effect Cape Town runners have on Fairview Tote turnover. But the Facebook writer will no doubt be tempted to add further comment by the nominations for two of this Saturday’s Durbanville races.

The Fillies Maiden Juvenile had just six entries and the Fillies Maiden only nine. The National Racing Bureau warned that these races would be cancelled if the numbers declared fell below six and eight respectively, but both survived.– Gold Circle

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2 weeks 1 day ago #754148 by Saint Tropez
Saint Tropez replied the topic: Cape trainers hit back
I agree Mrs Robinson, a little bit of competition is healthy.

So spread your wings a bit more and come to Joburg with your horses.

This includes other Cape trainers as well, it won't just be good for competition but good for the industry as well in general.

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2 weeks 1 day ago - 2 weeks 1 day ago #754150 by Bob Brogan
Bob Brogan replied the topic: Cape trainers hit back
The 1st thing the guys in the totes done years ago was look and see “ who’s raiding”

The pools would be bigger if there was more raiders

Also didn’t PE survive for years by taking horses “ not quite good enough “ to win elsewhere?

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Last Edit: 2 weeks 1 day ago by Bob Brogan.

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2 weeks 1 day ago #754174 by Craig Eudey
Craig Eudey replied the topic: Cape trainers hit back
IMHO the best way to sort this out is that in the lower merit rated races and maidens, the first horse's eliminated are the visitors. It happens here in the lower mr races. It is then up to the PE trainers to fill the fields and if they don't do that then the visitors are included. Higher rated races and features it is open play. If you have supported PE racing as an owner or trainer for years, I believe that in those races you should have preference.

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2 weeks 1 day ago #754180 by elmer
elmer replied the topic: Cape trainers hit back
Its called protectionism
Its what Pick and Pay and Checkers complained about when Massmart wanted to sell foodstuff in
the shopping centres
It is great to have a monopoly in any business
What the problem is that Cape Town that has 300 plus empty stables does not programme for
the lower MR horses as it does not suit the BIG stables who receive 50 plus well bred
2YO each year
The result is that a huge number of discards move to PE or Kim
Without these horses PE will also have problems filling fields

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2 weeks 1 day ago #754189 by Craig Eudey
Craig Eudey replied the topic: Cape trainers hit back
Elmer, it is about keeping smaller trainers and owners( racing too) in PE. Take those away and you will have no racing. You need that base of smaller trainers and owners otherwise you will have the same as Cape Town. I believe you have to support and be loyal to the people who have been loyal and supported you for years. If PE trainers/owners don't fill the races then it is their problem and then fields are filled with CT runner's.

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2 weeks 23 hours ago #754234 by louisg
louisg replied the topic: Cape trainers hit back
In essence Craig is correct, in terms of the looking after Owners in a Province, etc etc.

However, I cannot agree with local runners getting preference. In fact, Racing will continue to struggle, should we NOT remove these restrictions and guarantees to local runners, wherever they already exist , imho. These must be removed, Countrywide.
Firstly, we must urgently remove the whole "smaller Owner " line of thinking from Racing. We should value each and every Owner equally.
Secondly, why are we now wanting to protect one group of Owners, against another ? This is nonsense. Every Owner should have an equal right to race his/her horse anywhere in SA, under the same rules and the same conditions. We have a National handicapping system in SA. If the horse qualifies to run, in any race in SA, it must be allowed to run, no matter where the horse is based.
Thirdly, if we really are so concerned about Owners (and we too easily forget the Punters who create the turnovers which pay the Stakes), we should treat them all as our very valued Customers and find out from them what we can do for them, which will guide us, as we make every effort to retain and grow their support.

One thing that Racing does specialise in, is that a handful of people believe that only they know what's good for Racing and that everyone else is wrong or clueless and that they will continue to do things as they see fit. Everyone else must just fit in. This continues whilst turnovers continue to decline, year on year....

Only big changes, which includes listening to our Customers, will get us back on track again.

Protecting a few lower rated horses in a Province is not one of those big changes.
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2 weeks 23 hours ago #754236 by Sylvester
Sylvester replied the topic: Cape trainers hit back
what i find weird is that the Cape trainers have sufficient horses to race in PE however whe n they have racing in WC they cant fill the fields.

perhaps they have shares in the transport companies

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2 weeks 21 hours ago #754256 by louisg
louisg replied the topic: Cape trainers hit back
Sly
I think that programming is an issue, as well as the Poly surface.
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2 weeks 20 hours ago #754263 by Craig Eudey
Craig Eudey replied the topic: Cape trainers hit back
Louis, we have argued this before. I believe in loyalty to the people who have supported PE racing ( or anywhere ) before people who are just coming for a few days and leaving again. You and others are obviously entitled to your opinions.Maybe they must sort the program out in CT then or put a polytrack in so they dont lose races over winter. Mark my words, allowing absolutely no restrictions in PE will kill off the smaller trainers there and smaller owner( this is not a derogatory term) just talking about the guy who can buy a 25% share for R20k for the love of the game say and then has these bombs from CT some costing in their millions to contend with. Leave the crumbs to the locals I believe.

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2 weeks 19 hours ago #754268 by louisg
louisg replied the topic: Cape trainers hit back
Craig
Some food for thought...

1)We have had this argument before, a few years ago. So, KZN Trainers have gone along with your lines of thinking and where are we now, a few years later, since we decided to protect the lower rated horses of our loyal Owners ? How many runners are we giving the Operators in our C division and higher races ? Basically, the lower end horses are what 95 percent of our Racing has no option but to cater for, in KZN. Another Region that protects local runners, is Kimberley. Where has that taken them and their quality, over the last 6 years?


2)Gauteng horses raid KZN at will, now, with huge success. They are raiding us, like they raided Bloem, years ago...in spite of our "loyalty" rules. Last week we lost a maiden race at time of Acceptances, as it only had 7 runners declared. 5 of the 7 acceptors were from Gauteng. We , "the protected" could only muster 2 runners...!?

3)Since mediocrity has been protected through "loyalty" down here, we now have very few top class horses in the Province.
WHY ?
4)Very few KZN horses will make the big ones this Season. And very few of those , again, will be competitive in those races in which they make the fields.
WHY ?
5)Because when u reward mediocrity, that is what u will have. THATS WHY !

When one considers the History of KZN Racing and the many many great horses that were Trained and Raced here over the years, what we have now is far removed from those glory days.

We still have the Theatre of Champions. We still have the Greatest Race in SA. We still have, by far, the two most beautiful Training centers in the Country. So, we cannot blame the Operator. We can only blame ourselves. We cannot afford to keep bad horses, at the expense of the Owners. We need to work much harder, in our quest to find better quality horses and to regain the respect that was once part and parcel of Racing down here.
Those are the facts. We need to face them and we need to put big efforts into priority number 1, which is finding quality stock.
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2 weeks 17 hours ago #754279 by Mac
Mac replied the topic: Re:Cape trainers hit back
Laisserfaire


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"Lot 226, 2016 NYS, Diamondveld, R1.5m"

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2 weeks 12 hours ago #754283 by Sharky
Sharky replied the topic: Cape trainers hit back

louisg wrote: Craig
Some food for thought...

1)We have had this argument before, a few years ago. So, KZN Trainers have gone along with your lines of thinking and where are we now, a few years later, since we decided to protect the lower rated horses of our loyal Owners ? How many runners are we giving the Operators in our C division and higher races ? Basically, the lower end horses are what 95 percent of our Racing has no option but to cater for, in KZN. Another Region that protects local runners, is Kimberley. Where has that taken them and their quality, over the last 6 years?


2)Gauteng horses raid KZN at will, now, with huge success. They are raiding us, like they raided Bloem, years ago...in spite of our "loyalty" rules. Last week we lost a maiden race at time of Acceptances, as it only had 7 runners declared. 5 of the 7 acceptors were from Gauteng. We , "the protected" could only muster 2 runners...!?

3)Since mediocrity has been protected through "loyalty" down here, we now have very few top class horses in the Province.
WHY ?
4)Very few KZN horses will make the big ones this Season. And very few of those , again, will be competitive in those races in which they make the fields.
WHY ?
5)Because when u reward mediocrity, that is what u will have. THATS WHY !

When one considers the History of KZN Racing and the many many great horses that were Trained and Raced here over the years, what we have now is far removed from those glory days.

We still have the Theatre of Champions. We still have the Greatest Race in SA. We still have, by far, the two most beautiful Training centers in the Country. So, we cannot blame the Operator. We can only blame ourselves. We cannot afford to keep bad horses, at the expense of the Owners. We need to work much harder, in our quest to find better quality horses and to regain the respect that was once part and parcel of Racing down here.
Those are the facts. We need to face them and we need to put big efforts into priority number 1, which is finding quality stock.


This has to be comment of the decade. Great post and so true. There is a lot to be said but I’ll standby for now.

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2 weeks 11 hours ago #754284 by Over the Air
Over the Air replied the topic: Cape trainers hit back
What a posting by Louisg. Bravo! That took guts to pen and I am sure that you will not please everyone with your thoughts. One thing that you do not comment on is the quality of the KZN breeders in comparison to their Cape counterparts. You mention mediocrity regarding trainers, the same can be said of KZN breeders over the years. Too many poor mares have resulted in a generation of mediocre horses over the last 20 years. This is fact regardless of Summerhill being champion breeder for a large portion of this time I highlight.

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2 weeks 10 hours ago #754285 by Craig Eudey
Craig Eudey replied the topic: Cape trainers hit back
Hi Louis, as you say we don't have the greatest horse's here but how is letting more lower rated horse's from outside going to help? That is just bringing more bad horse's in? We have enough of them already. We want and need their better horse's here not the ones we already have an over supply of. I cannot see the reason for that.
A problem we have is that according to what MDK called the slip factor and on what the jockeys feel and see here, the JHB and Cape horse's are lower rated than the horses here of the same ability. Write more later. Just have to shoot off.

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2 weeks 6 hours ago #754291 by louisg
louisg replied the topic: Cape trainers hit back
Correct Craig. When I took Hashtag Strat back to raid Gauteng, after racing her here for a year, she was suddenly giving 6 or 7 kg's to the same fillies that she used to race against regularly up there, to short heads and at similar weights, a point or two in it. During the year of her absence from Gauteng, her opposition had similar success rates up there, to what she had down here...but the divide was obvious, to the point that one of the GautengTrainers remarked on this to me.

And that reinforces my point. We have so many weak horses down here, that it is only natural that those which stand out ,above the rest/ the norm will be more severely penalised.

So, when you come back on here later, let's ignore all of these lower rated horses and focus on horses rated 90 and above. How many of these do we have in KZN and why do we have so few of them ?

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2 weeks 6 hours ago #754294 by Craig Eudey
Craig Eudey replied the topic: Cape trainers hit back
Back. Ok we have enough bad horse's. We do need better horse's and that was the reason that GC/Natal trainers welcomed anyone bringing horse's of 75mr( if I remember correctly) to KZN. We want to improve our racing and not have it flooded with the lower class horse from outside to lower it even more and local horse's don't get a run. The reason we don't have top horse's. Hard to put my finger on. Buying at the bottom of the market in the majority of cases. How many Natal Trainer's can go spend R500k and above at a sale on a horse? Not many. Jhb has the money and Cape has the overseas money and studs that support their local trainers very well. Good luck to them training down there but is it helping the local racing?

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2 weeks 6 hours ago #754295 by Garrick
Garrick replied the topic: Cape trainers hit back
I have commented on this issue for years so it is refreshing to see a trainer making the same observations!

And, guys, they are OBSERVATIONS insofar as I make them.

Let's start at the beginning : Money cannot buy you a good horse. Knowledge of breeding lines, conformation and a big wallet can undoubtedly improve your chances but it still cannot guarantee that you will end up with a good horse.

So absence of money does not guarantee failure. Many past champions will attest to that.

KZN does not lack for decent facilities so we can eliminate that excuse. I'm not sure I feel the same way about their grass tracks but that is merely my opinion.

So that leaves us with the elephant in the room. Perhaps, on average, the region now has the poorest trainers in the country for a major centre?

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2 weeks 6 hours ago - 2 weeks 6 hours ago #754296 by Over the Air
Over the Air replied the topic: Cape trainers hit back
Louis' question about catering for the "better" horse intrigued me so I have done a bit of research. In the previous 3 months in KZN ( Dec 2018 - Feb 2019 ), the following handicaps MR 90 and above at all KZN tracks over any distance comprised of the following races:

12 December 2018 - Scottsville MR92 1000m - 11 runners
14 December 2018 - Greyville Poly 1600m - 7 runners
5 January 2019 - Scottsville Inside 1600m - 7 runners of which 2 were from "raiding satellite yards"
25 January 2019 - Greyville Poly 1400m - replaced by appies mr 60 and mr 78 races
3 February 2019 - Greyville Poly 2000m - replaced by MR64
24 February 2019 - Greyville Poly 1400m - replaced by FM 62
27 February 2019 - Scottsville inside 1000m - 5 runners

Disclaimer : - I assume that the replaced races due to lack of entries and have listed the replacement race as that that differs from the official program.

Either way this is very damning and supports Louis 100%. As an owner if I had a "better" horse I would feel obliged to fish where the fish are and move to a province that gives me opportunities surely?
Last Edit: 2 weeks 6 hours ago by Over the Air.

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2 weeks 6 hours ago #754297 by louisg
louisg replied the topic: Cape trainers hit back
Craig, acceptances closed today at 11h00 for next Wednesday's meeting at Greyville. We have lost the Graduation Plate, due to paucity of acceptances and have, in its place, the splitting of the MR66, 1600m race.
It is good that those horses get another race. It is not good, that we keep on cancelling Graduation Plate races.

To me, there is ONLY ONE issue that our Trainers Association should be addressing and that is upping the quality of our local stock.

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