No Whip debate

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4 months 2 weeks ago #744092 by Bob Brogan
Bob Brogan created the topic: No Whip debate
News of South Africa`s no whip races have reached the UK www.racingpost.com/news/south-africa-tri...essure-mounts/352783



Did you see the Belgium rider butcher that horse at the Breeders cup (Thunder Snow, Blue)



PS i saw a few guys on twitter suggesting the race was ruined the other day without the whip

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4 months 2 weeks ago #744094 by Bob Brogan
Bob Brogan replied the topic: No Whip debate
Found the Thread

Toffas Santos said “ Personal opinion is that the lack of the crop hampered the quality of the race. There were horses in the race that really suffered with the lack of assistance. Also, many of our jockeys are not equipped to to ride without a crop therefore hampering many a horses chances.“

Darryl Maree said “Agreed. Jocks should carry whips in all races as they are the only ones who will know if a horse is responding to the urgings of the crop, or not. Let the @NHASouthAfrica punish those who step over the line severely”

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4 months 2 weeks ago #744099 by Bob Brogan
Bob Brogan replied the topic: No Whip debate
Watching the race again, there was about 100m between first and last

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4 months 2 weeks ago #744101 by Biggie626
Biggie626 replied the topic: No Whip debate
WHEN I BECOME A OWNER SOMEDAY...I WILL NOT ALLOW MY HORSE TO BE HIT WITH A WHIP...NO WHIP IN TRAINING... NO WHIP IN RACING...

AS A OWNER I CARE FOR THE ANIMAL FIRST RATHER THAN THE SPORT!!

I GOOGLED DOES WHIPPING MAKE A HORSE RUN FASTER AND THIS WHAT CAME UP...

Whipping Doesn't Make Racehorses Go Faster. ... Down the final stretch, as jockeys whip mercilessly, horses either slow down or maintain the same speed. And whipping, says the researcher, actually punishes racehorses for running fast rather than encouraging them to go faster.

this is just my input and opinion... I am no expert... But my love for the animal will come first don't think I can tolerate something I love and care for been whipped...

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4 months 1 week ago - 4 months 1 week ago #744111 by Mac
Mac replied the topic: No Whip debate
I propose the Summer Cup to be whip-free. Who says "aye"? :)

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Last Edit: 4 months 1 week ago by Mac.

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4 months 1 week ago #744117 by mr hawaii
mr hawaii replied the topic: No Whip debate
at least 50% off apprentice and workrider races should be whip free - Help them to learn to balance properly and feel when a horse is giving its all - Many many horse hate the whip/the changed body weight of the rider and start to hang when they most need to run straight

THE MORE YOU STUDY FORM THE LUCKIER YOU GET
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4 months 1 week ago #744119 by louisg
louisg replied the topic: No Whip debate
Whip is probably the wrong name for what we currently use in SA nowadays. Ours has a soft, padded flap. Jocks may not hit more than once per stride and about 7 times in a race.
My concern is that we suddenly needed a number loading system, to start races. This appeared to be an admission by NHA that their Starters had lost control and that they lacked the horsemanship and abilities of their predecessors, who got to know individual horses and who were capable of grading them and controlling the start.

Now, with so much technology at their disposal, surely the Stipes are capable of monitoring stick use by jocks. At same time, surely the powers that be are capable of fine tuning the rules ?

So, the biggest concerns for me, on this issue, are the following -
1)Is NHA no longer in control of Jocks whip use ?
2)Are NHA stipes no longer capable of making decisions as per the rules?
3)Is this massive Racing Machine so inept that it cannot take the time to explain issues like this and to educate people who do not know? Tellytrack, electronic media, publications galore. Most people see the use of a stick as a whipping, a hiding. They do not know the facts. Because nobody bothered to educate them ! And because when certain jocks do abuse the whip, they are let off far too lightly and people notice this.
The big question on this one is far deeper than the convenient "public perception" statement which is being hidden behind.

And that question is, " Can NHA no longer control Racing?"

or there may just be another question.....

"Is there not a proper leader out there who actually understands Racing as well as horses and who can and wants to communicate with people"
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4 months 1 week ago #744124 by Bob Brogan
Bob Brogan replied the topic: No Whip debate
Jamie Spencer banned for 21 days following BHA hearing
Thu 8 Nov 2018
Jamie Spencer has been suspended for 21 days, seven of which have been deferred, following a British Horseracing Authority hearing.

The jockey had been referred to the disciplinary panel of the BHA after using his whip above the permitted level when riding Phoenix Of Spain into second place in the Vertem Futurity Trophy at Doncaster on October 27.

That was his fifth similar offence warranting a suspension of between two and six days in the previous six months.

Spencer will be sidelined on November 16, 17, 19-24, 27-30 and December 1 and 3. The remaining seven days will be deferred until February 3, 2019.



Paul Hanagan received a 10-day ban, with three of those deferred, after he used his whip too much on Inviolable Spirit in the Watch More With Racing UK Extra Handicap at Catterick on October 30.

He was referred to the panel as it was his fifth whip offence warranting a suspension of between two and six days in the last six months.

Hanagan’s suspension runs from November 20-24, 27 and 28. The other three days are deferred until January 28, 2019.

racinguk.co.uk

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4 months 1 week ago #744129 by Sharky
Sharky replied the topic: No Whip debate
Great post!

I think the starting stalls is a big problem in SA Racing..

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4 months 1 week ago #744183 by Craig Eudey
Craig Eudey replied the topic: No Whip debate
What would you like to change with the starting stalls Sharky?

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4 months 1 week ago #744192 by Craig Pienaar
Craig Pienaar replied the topic: No Whip debate
The no whip race was a fiasco and should never be held again imo bring back the whip

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4 months 1 week ago #744200 by Dave Scott
Dave Scott replied the topic: No Whip debate
Have to agree with Louis, racing has been around for many many years and so have racing authorities to control the use of the whip and take jockeys to task that break the rules.

I am sure i read that its an attempt to bring people back to racing by removing the whip? Do me a favour lol

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4 months 1 week ago #744203 by Mac
Mac replied the topic: Re:No Whip debate
Once upon s time jockeys used to have spurs.


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4 months 1 week ago #744208 by gg
gg replied the topic: No Whip debate
Riding crop is the proper name , and used correctly will have no negative effect on a horse .
Horses are individuals, just like humans , some need more encouragement than others to achieve but they also learn bad habits quickly that need to be sorted out .
Watching racing on TT these days it is easy to see which jockeys are good ,well balanced and will get the best out of a nag and others that bounce around knocking the h#ll out of the poor animals .
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4 months 1 week ago #744221 by Craig Eudey
Craig Eudey replied the topic: No Whip debate
An apple was fined last night for unnecessary use of the crop on a horse that was not in contention and never would be.
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4 months 1 week ago #744235 by durbs
durbs replied the topic: No Whip debate

Sharky wrote: Great post!

I think the starting stalls is a big problem in SA Racing..

Shoes falling off is the biggest problem in SA by far.
We the world leaders in that department.

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4 months 1 week ago #744247 by gg
gg replied the topic: No Whip debate
Craig ,What are racing rules on the use of a crop ?

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3 months 1 week ago #746581 by Bob Brogan
Bob Brogan replied the topic: No Whip debate
whip in racing to be banned was rejected by the British Horseracing Authority on Wednesday.

DECEMBER 13, 2018
Respected journalist Matthew Syed said in his column in The Times newspaper that the racing industry was “in denial” and that “pain is being inflicted upon animals for the purpose of making them run faster”.

He added: “It is in the interests not only of horses but of racing itself to consign the use of this device for the purposes of increasing speed to the scrapheap of history.”

Responding on Twitter, the BHA said: “If horses behaved as if they were in pain, then the millions of people who watch the sport – and the thousands who take part and dedicate their lives to the care of these animals – wouldn’t accept it.

“They would be horrified. In fact, our trainers, riders and owners are knowledgeable and compassionate and the last thing they want to do is see their horses hurt.

“The whip is foam-padded and air-cushioned and we have very strict rules which limit the amount of times which the whip can be used, and jockeys who care about the horses they ride.”

It added: “We are aware that a debate is ongoing about the use of the whip and the BHA is following the wide range of views very closely.”

However, while many in racing aligned themselves to the BHA’s viewpoint, former Channel 4 pundit John McCririck has long been an advocate of banning jockeys from hitting horses with the whip.

He feels the BHA should take the lead from the latest debate to outlaw its use.

“It is appalling there are people still prepared in this country to stand up for hitting racehorses,” McCririck told Press Association Sport.

“No other living creature are you legally allowed to hit, so what on earth are we doing?

“Racing would go on without it. It does go on. We have whip-less races (for apprentices). The only thing I would say is that jockeys must be allowed a whip for straightening purposes only.

“I used to be a supporter of the whip as a punter and complained if the jockey did not ride as strongly on a horse than a rival that had beaten mine.

“You do get far more suspensions now in the Group 1 and other top races.

“It is extraordinary. People will look back at this age and say this was a great chance to boost racing’s image. It’s the perception we have to overcome, whether they are feather whips or whatever.

“People come into racing, see horses being hit and are repulsed by it. Why are we defending it?

“Imagine if the whip had never been invented and if someone came along now and said ‘let’s bring whips in’. They wouldn’t be allowed in this day and age we live in.

“I’ve got the zealotry of a convert because I was a supporter of the whip when I was a punter in a betting shop – but then I listened to the late Sir Peter O’Sullevan and the greatest jockey John Francome and others.

“Views are changing on so many issues, and rightly so. You adapt and you change.

“To my mind it’s a great chance for the BHA. They could do so much for racing voluntarily by outlawing the whip.

“There would be an outcry from the racing regulars – the trainers and the jockeys – but after a month no one would think about it. We’ll look back in time and say ‘why on earth did we do this when no one else does it?’.

“They do have hands-and-heels races and this enhances horsemanship. Hitting horses is totally unacceptable and it shames us as a sport. It puts people off.

“We could set a worldwide example. It is up to the BHA to say what’s morally right in this day and age. It would cost nothing and it would help change the image of racing.” – www.racinguk.com

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3 months 1 week ago #746607 by Garrick
Garrick replied the topic: No Whip debate
Couple of points with regard to horse care :

1.) As mentioned in another post - spurs were used on racehorses until well into the last century. I am sure there was a loud whinge from the usual morons when they were outlawed.

2.) The 'Horse Whisperer' has taken the 'break' out of 'breaking in' horses and shown that the previous, inhumane but widely accepted method of rendering a horse compliant can be achieved in a caring fashion.

3.) I have no problem with 'showing the whip' to guide a horse.

4.) I have a big problem with the uncontrolled panel beating going on in South African racing at present; an issue which I first started commenting on after the 2016 July meeting. I have lost count of the number of jockeys I have observed flailing away on a horse which is clearly tiring and dropping away through the field. Consequently I endorse Louis Goosen's very valid questions regarding who, if anybody, is actually regulating racing.

I only have one horse left in training. It will be my last as the 'game' is now a grubby, uncontrolled, over priced circus offering almost no pleasure and certainly no pleasant social interaction and camaraderie. My personal rules are simple:

a.) 'Rest' is not a four letter word.
b.) You had better have a very good reason if you administer any/most medications to my horse.
c.) The use of the whip ( yes - it's a WHIP) on my animal is strictly prohibited. Jockeys are under no obligation to ride for me if they cannot comply.
d.) No horse of mine will ever race as a two year old & may only debut as a late three year old. I'm not in this game to fatten up vets and even the brain dead should know that a horse only reaches maturity at 5. So what's the hurry?

My source influence in 'how to treat horses' was formulated in the 1970's by the Countess Of Kenmare. She imported and raced a number of Australian fillies in the Cape. Older racing fans might remember Miss Lindeman, Miss International & Marysa to name a few. The Countess had a strict 'no stick' policy which didn't stop her horses winning a slew of Grade 1 races.

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3 months 1 week ago #746613 by Over the Air
Over the Air replied the topic: No Whip debate
Garrick a well thought out post as per usual. You are clearly not the norm when it comes to horses, whilst I admire you for your views and actions, the bottom line is the course you have chosen is not sustainable from a financial point of view, and it is no surprise to read that this will be your last racehorse.

So before this is construed as being a negative post, let me give you my views. I have been following racing for many years, and this will be my fifth decade of following the "sport". When I look back to when I started, and compare things then to now, it is a different landscape. From an owners perspective I believe that the biggest change has come in regards to the ease in which any Tom, Dick or Markus can enter the owners ranks. Back in the day ownership was a privilege indeed. As mentioned previously, I had a few friends who owned horses and when an invite to join them at the races came, it was akin to receiving an invite to the promised land. With a shiny owners "guest" badge attached to the suit jacket, you could enter members quarters, sit outside in the owners and trainers designated areas on the packed stands, and felt as if you were the elite. And you were. The hordes of the great unwashed did their thing and you were in an isolated cocoon. Anybody interested in racing would aspire to become an owner.

These days is a numbers game. The costs of keeping a horse in training have become prohibitive and owners numbers are falling year on year. Anyone can be an owner, applications are scanned through and approved - the criteria these days are fees must be paid to the Jockey Club and let the mug trainer carry the risk when the owners realise that 12 months down the line they will be lucky to place in a maiden and those dreams and promises are exposed for what they are in 99% of the cases - fairy tales and pipe dreams.

The pressure on particularly smaller trainers puts pressure on horses because of the need to perform. More and more horses, many of them yearlings are taken straight into training establishments straight after the sale. An empty stable in a trainers yard means no income from that resource. It's no wonder we have less and less older horses campaigning amongst the lower handicaps. The majority get stumped early and never make it. Its a conundrum - how many owners are prepared at R10K a month to wait 2 years and more before they see their horse debut?
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